Interview with Sophie Heldman/Mia Tharia/Clare Dunne/Flora Nicholson (The Education Of Jane Cumming)

The Education of Jane Cumming centers on two teachers, Jane Pirie (played by Flora Nicholson) and Marianne Woods (Clare Dunne), who run an exclusive girls’ boarding school in nineteenth-century Scotland. Their lives are upended when Lady Cumming Gordon (Fiona Shaw) enrolls three of her granddaughters, including Jane Cumming (Mia Tharia), a 15-year-old from India. We spoke with director Sophie Heldman, and cast members Tharia, Dunne, and Nicholson.

Tell us how the project came about…

Sophie Heldman: I looked into William Wyler’s [1961] film The Children’s Hour, which is based on Lillian Hellman’s [1934] play of the same name, and inspired by a true story. The moment I learned it was about two teachers in Edinburgh in 1810 and a biracial 15-year-old student, I knew it would be my next film.

I immediately started researching and discovered an amazing book by Lillian Faderman, Scotch Verdict [published in 1983], in which she gives an account of the original court papers – a pioneering effort for the time, since those materials weren’t as accessible as they are today. She also juxtaposes this historical account with a diary entry in which she speaks with her imaginary girlfriend about what happened in 1810, how things have changed, and how much progress still needs to be made.

Reading that was fascinating for two reasons. First, she wrote this in the early 1980s, which is already over 40 years ago. Second, it’s written in a way that allows the reader to form their own interpretation of the original story, which is exactly what I did.

I also went to Edinburgh to research the original case and saw the papers firsthand. It’s quite exciting to see everything contained in a box: letters from these teachers and secretaries – about women who loved women, who didn’t have children, who were the ‘aunties’ in the family. They discarded what they didn’t need, leaving behind a snapshot of ordinary women’s lives and of women of color in Britain.

Jane Pirie, who went to court, used to seal her letters with a stamp. Seeing that, I thought. I’m really standing on the shoulders of giants, these women who paved the way before me. I will try to find the truth of that story and how that all came about. It’s fictionalized to a certain extent, but it gives these women a voice.

The themes of education and community, especially as they’re threatened by racism and homophobia, still feel very relevant today. How do you think the film’s representation of these themes resonates with contemporary society?

Sophie: I think what we’re experiencing right now is that our societies, at least the European ones, are based on these elements. Their starting point was the French Revolution, and our story takes place during the Scottish Enlightenment, a period that laid important groundwork for progressive ideas about education, rights, and democracy.

This true story clearly shows that many of the problems we’re dealing with today were already there, and that they have to do with visibility and integration. It was almost fun to look at it through the prism of 200 years later. Societies move in waves.

I think about the scene with the judges throughout the epilogue – everything the judges and lawyers have to say. It’s all historically correct. The accusation is true, and the arguments are mostly faithful to what was argued at that time. It’s fascinating to present that.

Initially, it all felt very distant and historical. Not so much for me personally, because I grew up very conservatively and I could feel, in my upbringing, the same kind of ignorance towards other people’s realities. But now, as the film is being released into the world, it feels much more urgent. There seems to be a growing desire in some places to return to a more reactionary time, and that’s one of the reasons I think this film – based on a true story – is so important. While we might be tempted to question or reinterpret such histories, ultimately it comes down to which stories we choose to look at and which ones we decide to tell. Much of this story feels timeless. Perhaps that timelessness lies in the fact that, unless we achieve true equality in terms of race, gender, and a shared understanding of democracy, these questions will continue.

I was struck by two especially tense, emotional scenes: the bedroom scene in that moment of desperation, and the slap between Jane Cumming and Margot [Dunbar, played by Amy Louise Walker]. How did you prepare for those heavier moments, and did you feel that tension while playing them?

Mia Tharia: Amy is fantastic. This is her first film, which is actually quite scary. What’s nice about working with such an ensemble of young people is that it’s quite instinctual. I think that really works, because they’re all meant to be young and have this fire at the surface. I think everyone brought that.

That slapping scene was an interesting one to play, because there’s this moment of imagination and play, and they’re pretending to be elephants. It feels like Jane is finally finding a sense of belonging, and it’s interrupted in a really heartbreaking way.

What was the most challenging aspect of portraying these characters? I read that you shot the movie in five weeks, so I imagine the schedule must have been quite tight.

Clare Dunne: Saying really long words with a Scottish accent [laughs], it nearly killed me. Shooting a lot of the scenes with all the girls was great fun. There was so much energy on set when we were teaching them. Some parts were more difficult, though, because there were moments when you’re playing these characters, and for some reason, in certain scenes, you suddenly become very aware of the real people behind them. My heart really went out to anyone of that time who may have been in love with someone of the same sex, when society wouldn’t even allow them to wonder if that was possible. And then, seeing people risk their whole lives – their reputation, money, everything – to take a venture to emancipate, free, and help all these young women, only to have it taken away from them…that was hard. My empathy muscles, some days, were really tested. Those were days I found particularly challenging.

Did you feel a sense of responsibility making a film based on a real-life story?

Flora Nicholson: I suppose, if I could boil it down to one sentence, it would be that we’re all connected to one another. We’re not separate. Separation is an illusion. There is no us and them. There never was us and them. There’s only us.

How much do you think the Scottish setting contributes to the emotional world of the film?

Sophie: I really wanted to make this film in Scotland. I grew up in Switzerland and live in Berlin, and I have a Mexican mother, which may help to have a broader worldview. I went to Scotland and tried very humbly to understand things from a foreign perspective.

Luckily, we were able to shoot the film entirely in Scotland, apart from some studio scenes in Germany. Brexit and COVID happened, and it wasn’t clear if we could do this as a co-production, but I’m glad we made it work.

A large part of what makes it feel authentic is due not only to Flora – who’s British – on the script level [Nicholson co-wrote the screenplay with Heldman], but also to Kate Reid, our DOP [director of photography], who is from Scotland and lives in Edinburgh, though that’s not the reason I chose her. She has the most amazing cinematographic eye. She just made the visual world happen. That’s entirely to her credit, and it comes across as so powerful and authentic.

The seaside scene really lingers in my mind, too. Jane Cumming and her teachers are outside, they take their shoes off, and there’s suddenly a sense of freedom…

Sophie: That’s exactly it. We tried to find all these details that give you a sense of how they feel, the period they’re in, and what it’s all about through tinier things – like, why don’t you take your shoes off? Why is the dress lifted at the end?

Jane Pirie lost everything, and she wanted something. Like so many women, she wanted to carve out a space that could exist within the society around her – to be independent, to live with who you want to. So she had to hold it together, which is also why she went into that fight. In the end, she lost it all, but for me she didn’t fail.